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	<title>Comments on: Secondhand games, worse than piracy?</title>
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	<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/</link>
	<description>A veteran's view on marketing games</description>
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		<title>By: Zoran</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4778</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4778</guid>
		<description>No one here denies that what used-game resellers are doing is wrong. It&#039;s blatantly wrong. 

But you are a serious whackjob if you think that people should be refused the right to resell their property.  I bought a game, I bought the right to play and use it, therefore I should have the right to sell that right to anyone else, for any compensation I deem worthy. It&#039;s that simple.

Therefore, there are two groups of people to blame for the sorry state of things. People that are willing to buy second-hand games at rip-off prices. And two, the video game publishers that have ruined the second-hand industry without invasive DRM that essentially makes all games &quot;rented&quot; and not &quot;bought&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one here denies that what used-game resellers are doing is wrong. It&#8217;s blatantly wrong. </p>
<p>But you are a serious whackjob if you think that people should be refused the right to resell their property.  I bought a game, I bought the right to play and use it, therefore I should have the right to sell that right to anyone else, for any compensation I deem worthy. It&#8217;s that simple.</p>
<p>Therefore, there are two groups of people to blame for the sorry state of things. People that are willing to buy second-hand games at rip-off prices. And two, the video game publishers that have ruined the second-hand industry without invasive DRM that essentially makes all games &#8220;rented&#8221; and not &#8220;bought&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Cow</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4777</link>
		<dc:creator>Cow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4777</guid>
		<description>The point is, they are both con&#039;s. The attempts to restrict the use of a bought product should be banned, downloaded or not. That&#039;s what happens when you buy something, it is yours. It is &quot;morally wrong&quot; to restrict the consumers use. It is blatant profiteering to expect residuals on each transaction down the line. This article doesn&#039;t argue so much for the elimination of the secondary market as it does for moving the &#039;profiteering&#039; up the ladder. Shame.

I have a Sierra &#039;InAction&#039; magazine from the early 90s. It claimed games will drop to the $5-10 range, as the result of CD-ROM&#039;s eliminating piracy; however, with this chance at hand, it still didn&#039;t happen &amp; shortly thereafter, CD-burners &amp; media became affordable. A missed opportunity.

Further, games are terrible these days. The demos are often more like videos than the shareware of old, they often restrict user-generated content in ways the old never did (i.e., test drive unlimited vs. test drive 3), and then try to charge piles of cash for minimal amounts of additional content or even patches. Regardless of who is driving this trend, the motive is greed. The result is dwindling profits, no surprise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is, they are both con&#8217;s. The attempts to restrict the use of a bought product should be banned, downloaded or not. That&#8217;s what happens when you buy something, it is yours. It is &#8220;morally wrong&#8221; to restrict the consumers use. It is blatant profiteering to expect residuals on each transaction down the line. This article doesn&#8217;t argue so much for the elimination of the secondary market as it does for moving the &#8216;profiteering&#8217; up the ladder. Shame.</p>
<p>I have a Sierra &#8216;InAction&#8217; magazine from the early 90s. It claimed games will drop to the $5-10 range, as the result of CD-ROM&#8217;s eliminating piracy; however, with this chance at hand, it still didn&#8217;t happen &amp; shortly thereafter, CD-burners &amp; media became affordable. A missed opportunity.</p>
<p>Further, games are terrible these days. The demos are often more like videos than the shareware of old, they often restrict user-generated content in ways the old never did (i.e., test drive unlimited vs. test drive 3), and then try to charge piles of cash for minimal amounts of additional content or even patches. Regardless of who is driving this trend, the motive is greed. The result is dwindling profits, no surprise.</p>
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		<title>By: Snark</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4776</link>
		<dc:creator>Snark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4776</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s called capitalism. If you don&#039;t like it there is always china.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s called capitalism. If you don&#8217;t like it there is always china.</p>
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		<title>By: Flo</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4775</link>
		<dc:creator>Flo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4775</guid>
		<description>&quot;But the publishers are going to have the last laugh here. [...] And online needs no retailers. [...]&quot;

Good point. Online sales do not need publishers either, though - they only need a distributor. Steam fills that role, Amazon could come up with something similar - or simply partner up with Valve - and even Google might not be above stepping in. Traditional publishers like Electronic Arts will ultimately go the way of the dodo.

And there IS a second-hand market online. Selling Steam accounts may be a violation of usage terms in some countries, but I have yet to see Valve drag their own customers before a court. Although I&#039;d really love to see a judge slam the first sale doctrine into their face so they implement a reliable and safe procedure to transfer licenses to other accounts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But the publishers are going to have the last laugh here. [...] And online needs no retailers. [...]&#8221;</p>
<p>Good point. Online sales do not need publishers either, though &#8211; they only need a distributor. Steam fills that role, Amazon could come up with something similar &#8211; or simply partner up with Valve &#8211; and even Google might not be above stepping in. Traditional publishers like Electronic Arts will ultimately go the way of the dodo.</p>
<p>And there IS a second-hand market online. Selling Steam accounts may be a violation of usage terms in some countries, but I have yet to see Valve drag their own customers before a court. Although I&#8217;d really love to see a judge slam the first sale doctrine into their face so they implement a reliable and safe procedure to transfer licenses to other accounts.</p>
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		<title>By: Alessia</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4218</link>
		<dc:creator>Alessia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4218</guid>
		<description>Games are too expensive. I was just looking at Steam today at two new releases that intrested me: £34.99 and £39.99. Sorry but thats just not going to happen. 

Thanks to student debt I barely make enough to afford 1 new game every month.

The only games that will get that sort of money from me are games that are ART. 

This hypothetically applies to an open ended RPG with lots of story, providing options for every path I would realistically want to take and with NO CUT CONTENT.

Bleating about having to make tough choices because of not enough time will only mean i&#039;m picking up your £40 game gold edition for £10 with expansion packs a few years later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Games are too expensive. I was just looking at Steam today at two new releases that intrested me: £34.99 and £39.99. Sorry but thats just not going to happen. </p>
<p>Thanks to student debt I barely make enough to afford 1 new game every month.</p>
<p>The only games that will get that sort of money from me are games that are ART. </p>
<p>This hypothetically applies to an open ended RPG with lots of story, providing options for every path I would realistically want to take and with NO CUT CONTENT.</p>
<p>Bleating about having to make tough choices because of not enough time will only mean i&#8217;m picking up your £40 game gold edition for £10 with expansion packs a few years later.</p>
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		<title>By: moo</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-4187</link>
		<dc:creator>moo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 00:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-4187</guid>
		<description>To go against the other comparisons that have been made here, I&#039;ll offer this one:

Compare buying a video game to the purchase of a movie ticket.  The theatre is selling you an entertainment experience.  For your $10 you get to sit for 2 hours in front of their big screen, big sound, and watch a movie which may not be (legally) available to you yet through other channels.

Well, the developers who make games are trying to sell you an entertainment experience also.  It usually costs around $60, but you can play it in your own living room and as often as you like for as long as you like (or until you get bored of it).  But don&#039;t think they are just greedy -- you have to realize that it took several years for them to make that game that you got bored of in a single week.  Dozens or (more likely) hundreds of people worked really hard to make that thing and get it shipped and into a box and on the shelf so that you could buy it.

My opinion is that as a customer, the (morally) right thing to do is to pay the $60 for a new copy so that the creators get some recompense for their efforts.  Paying $55 to some reselling middlemen at GameStop, and then selling it back to them for $28 so they can resell it to another guy at $55 (and again five more times), is the morally wrong thing to do, because the people who worked hard to bring that game into existence and make it possible for you to play it, get nothing in this scenario.

Yes, you can probably tell I&#039;m a game developer.  I always buy my games new at retail, unless its an old game that I can&#039;t get anywhere except used.  I would even rather spend $60 on a game from one of our fiercest competitors, and give them some money for their efforts, than buy their game used and give that money to GameStop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To go against the other comparisons that have been made here, I&#8217;ll offer this one:</p>
<p>Compare buying a video game to the purchase of a movie ticket.  The theatre is selling you an entertainment experience.  For your $10 you get to sit for 2 hours in front of their big screen, big sound, and watch a movie which may not be (legally) available to you yet through other channels.</p>
<p>Well, the developers who make games are trying to sell you an entertainment experience also.  It usually costs around $60, but you can play it in your own living room and as often as you like for as long as you like (or until you get bored of it).  But don&#8217;t think they are just greedy &#8212; you have to realize that it took several years for them to make that game that you got bored of in a single week.  Dozens or (more likely) hundreds of people worked really hard to make that thing and get it shipped and into a box and on the shelf so that you could buy it.</p>
<p>My opinion is that as a customer, the (morally) right thing to do is to pay the $60 for a new copy so that the creators get some recompense for their efforts.  Paying $55 to some reselling middlemen at GameStop, and then selling it back to them for $28 so they can resell it to another guy at $55 (and again five more times), is the morally wrong thing to do, because the people who worked hard to bring that game into existence and make it possible for you to play it, get nothing in this scenario.</p>
<p>Yes, you can probably tell I&#8217;m a game developer.  I always buy my games new at retail, unless its an old game that I can&#8217;t get anywhere except used.  I would even rather spend $60 on a game from one of our fiercest competitors, and give them some money for their efforts, than buy their game used and give that money to GameStop.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Buxton</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-3644</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Buxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-3644</guid>
		<description>As a loyal videogame customer and even as a programmer I have to say I have little sympathy for this industry and its new found crusade against pre-owned. Selling second hand games is not &quot;intellectually wrong as well as morally wrong&quot;. Putting DRM on games that stops me playing them a year later on a new PC is morally wrong.  Putting DRM on games that has potentially destructive consequences for the customers PC is morally wrong (e.g Starforce). Poor customer service is also typical of the industry and has been for many years. Back in the days of the Amiga if a game needed patching it was normally the pirate community that did it, if you bought the store bought copy you were out of luck! I remember saving my pocket money to buy Mortal Kombat 2, only for it to be incompatible because I had a RAM expansion card! Luckily my friend at school had a pirate copy that was patched.. I&#039;m still waiting for the official patch!! 

Nowadays we are faced with the choice of an illegal version that just works, or one that will potentially break down and cause us to have to ring some sort of customer support number and spend hours convincing the representative that we&#039;re not software pirates (If I was a pirate I&#039;d be playing this game already!!!)

I don&#039;t want to buy download versions, I love videogames and I like buying a boxed product, but if the DRM trend continues that is what I&#039;ll be forced to do (kudos to Valve for taking a stand against destructive DRM on STEAM)

So, instead of moaning about second hand, try treating your most loyal customers, who WANT to buy new games with a little more respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a loyal videogame customer and even as a programmer I have to say I have little sympathy for this industry and its new found crusade against pre-owned. Selling second hand games is not &#8220;intellectually wrong as well as morally wrong&#8221;. Putting DRM on games that stops me playing them a year later on a new PC is morally wrong.  Putting DRM on games that has potentially destructive consequences for the customers PC is morally wrong (e.g Starforce). Poor customer service is also typical of the industry and has been for many years. Back in the days of the Amiga if a game needed patching it was normally the pirate community that did it, if you bought the store bought copy you were out of luck! I remember saving my pocket money to buy Mortal Kombat 2, only for it to be incompatible because I had a RAM expansion card! Luckily my friend at school had a pirate copy that was patched.. I&#8217;m still waiting for the official patch!! </p>
<p>Nowadays we are faced with the choice of an illegal version that just works, or one that will potentially break down and cause us to have to ring some sort of customer support number and spend hours convincing the representative that we&#8217;re not software pirates (If I was a pirate I&#8217;d be playing this game already!!!)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to buy download versions, I love videogames and I like buying a boxed product, but if the DRM trend continues that is what I&#8217;ll be forced to do (kudos to Valve for taking a stand against destructive DRM on STEAM)</p>
<p>So, instead of moaning about second hand, try treating your most loyal customers, who WANT to buy new games with a little more respect.</p>
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		<title>By: newparadigm</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-3629</link>
		<dc:creator>newparadigm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-3629</guid>
		<description>Piracy?  I think not.  I buy second hand cds, books and dvds on Amazon.com all the time for 1-20% of the original cost primarily because it is a great way to save money.  Why would games be any different?  A download model with a periodic price reduction would solve this problem for game publishers.  Just like the price for other content on cds, dvds or books decreases over time so should the price for older games as newer versions are released.  Just like the music industry lost sales when they failed to embrace online music downloads initially so will game publishers lose on potential sales.  I will not buy second hand games from retailers on principle because of the ridiculous mark-up.  However games publishers are really missing the boat by not going head to head with second hand retailers and selling cheaper online versions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Piracy?  I think not.  I buy second hand cds, books and dvds on Amazon.com all the time for 1-20% of the original cost primarily because it is a great way to save money.  Why would games be any different?  A download model with a periodic price reduction would solve this problem for game publishers.  Just like the price for other content on cds, dvds or books decreases over time so should the price for older games as newer versions are released.  Just like the music industry lost sales when they failed to embrace online music downloads initially so will game publishers lose on potential sales.  I will not buy second hand games from retailers on principle because of the ridiculous mark-up.  However games publishers are really missing the boat by not going head to head with second hand retailers and selling cheaper online versions.</p>
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		<title>By: Riftstalker</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-3482</link>
		<dc:creator>Riftstalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-3482</guid>
		<description>Just an example: when Diablo 3 was recently announced by Blizzard, a ton of gamers decided to go back to Diablo 2 and refresh their passion for the series.

They were greeted by a host of online retailers that offer Diablo 2 CD keys for just $4.99. That includes the expansion too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just an example: when Diablo 3 was recently announced by Blizzard, a ton of gamers decided to go back to Diablo 2 and refresh their passion for the series.</p>
<p>They were greeted by a host of online retailers that offer Diablo 2 CD keys for just $4.99. That includes the expansion too!</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/10/08/secondhand-games-worse-than-piracy/comment-page-1/#comment-3481</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bruceongames.com/?p=960#comment-3481</guid>
		<description>Comparing secondhand games sales to piracy is frankly OFFENSIVE. The publishers are so accustomed to enormous profit margins that they are blinded with greed.

Personally I never spend more than £25 pounds for a game. EVER. I wait until they drop in price. I very rarely buy secondhand. £40-£45 for a game is just taking the pi55. Does that make me also comparable to a pirate because I refuse to pay their preposterous price?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing secondhand games sales to piracy is frankly OFFENSIVE. The publishers are so accustomed to enormous profit margins that they are blinded with greed.</p>
<p>Personally I never spend more than £25 pounds for a game. EVER. I wait until they drop in price. I very rarely buy secondhand. £40-£45 for a game is just taking the pi55. Does that make me also comparable to a pirate because I refuse to pay their preposterous price?</p>
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